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3人6P3人6P,把性慾揉出来把性慾揉出来,很能摇很能摇

3人6P3人6P,把性慾揉出来把性慾揉出来,很能摇很能摇

发布日期:2021年04月15日
Crab claw sails evolving to rectangular shape

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by gonzo, Nov 28, 2020.

  1. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

  2. Rumars
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    Rumars Senior Member

    Nope, rectangular (lug) sails were traditional in some areas like PNG, nothing new there. They simply switched woven pandanus leaves for more modern materials. Crab claws are the newer invention actually.
     
  3. Will Gilmore
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    Will Gilmore Senior Member

    There are some modern takes on the Pacific Lateen or Crab Claw that, I think, hold some promise.
    upload_2020-11-28_20-37-47.png

    upload_2020-11-28_20-38-20.png
    I especially like this version
    It's like putting a hang glider on for a sail. Lots of potential for reducing heeling while also reducing displacement.


    -Will (Dragonfly)
     
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  4. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    I've seen drawings from Captain Cook's exploration that show crab claw sails. Do you know when the square sails developed into a crab claw? Seems like a step backwards.
     
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  5. Rumars
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    Rumars Senior Member

    It's a difficult question and I doubt anybody can give a definitive answer. We know for sure that in the Bismark Sea the lug was common around 1900. There even is one good example preserved, a 15m lug schooner proa. In the same timeframe we have evidence of classic crab claw with curved spars in the Port Moresby area. This is all photographic evidence wich I can link to if you desire.
    The question is if the islanders copied the lugs from europeans, or if the lug is a more ancient form of proa sail, or if it is a separate local evolution that did not got swallowed by the enroaching crab claw. If they copied it from the europeans it would be a singular case, most islanders elsewhere converted either to the european sprit rig, or to the gaff rig. This is normal, ships smallboats usually had sprit rigs and later gunters and gaffs, the standing lug as used by the proas was not common by 1800. The balanced lug came into fashion later for navy lifeboats.
    I am of the opinion that the standing lug (wich is always used on the "bad" tack with the sail against the mast) is either an older and/or local form. We even have one picture of an "oval" sail, where the sides not supported by spars are rounded.
    When the europeans arrived the pacific area was well into a process of change, the shunter with crabclaw was widespread for enough time to have local character, but did not had become the dominant boat form everywhere. The european arrival killed the V shaped standing sprit sails on tackers, but the different forms of delta shaped shunter sails survived because european sails were not easily adapted to shunting.
    In the PNG area there are two areas that use lugs, the Bismark sea islands with standing lugs and the Louisiade Archipelago with balanced lugs. The balanced variety certainly looks more "european inspired", but I don't have good info on that.
     
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  6. BobBill
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    BobBill Senior Member

    Flat tops too.
     
  7. messabout
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    messabout Senior Member

    Rumars, I posit that the shape of sails may have evolved on their own without a great deal of regard for the influence of others. We sailors are constantly looking for better ways to do things. The Polynesians and others were surely as interested in better sails and would have explored shapes. Or were they committed to a particular sail form because of tradition?
     
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  8. Rumars
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    Rumars Senior Member

    I don't think tradition has much to do with it. Their primary limitation was technology, they did not know fabrics as we do. Their sails appearance was mat like, not a fabric as we understand it. They did use this to their advantage by combining differently woven strips into one sail, like we do today with radial construction, creating a shaped sail when tensioned. The problem was supporting the sail edges, and the best solution to that is a triangle with two spars. The rectangular form with two spars offers less support but more area for the same sparlenght, it's survival has to be linked has to specific conditions.

    The British Museum has 3 original sails, two tahitian and one maori.
    sail | British Museum /collection/object/E_Oc1999-Q-140
    canoe; sail | British Museum /collection/object/E_Oc-NZ-147
    sail | British Museum /collection/object/E_Oc1999-Q-139

    The maori one is actively studied and it has a website since it is the only original in existance. Some even think Cook collected the sail, but it's not certain.
     
  9. BobBill
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    BobBill Senior Member

    The dodger who sail boats as a living, more or less, will play with stuff, pragmatists.

    I am an outrigger dodger who thinks their practicality and and practices are more interesting than most things. The real sailors. But that is just me.
     
  10. Will Gilmore
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    Will Gilmore Senior Member

    I would submit that once a utilitarian material, shape and manufacturing process has been found, a hunter/gatherer society with limited resources and time would rely more on generational learning/teaching than experimentation. The cost of trying something as involved and resourse consuming as experimenting with an untried sail design would be paid by the whole community, not just the individual who might have an interesting new idea. Small communities that rely on each other tend to be very conservative in this respect.

    However, I believe there was a much wider reaching trade between these ancient people than evidence has been unearthed yet.
     
  11. BobBill
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    BobBill Senior Member

    +1. I agree there are the players, the swabs who experiment like with foils and wings; and there are the swabs like us, who want and do practical...if it is too complicated etc, we avoid it. Most of us do not use helmets aboard, tall wings and unwieldy foils, all of which are nice but complicate a simple love, an act called sailing.

    And we wonder why we do not see the numbers rise? Me thinks we are a victim of "wants" not "needs."

    The pure joy of a practical boat sailing...as the man said, perception may be everything, but think "everything" through is simple and best, to me.

    Best we recall the words of a small town poet and apply as we can.
    "Welcome to our world, called Earth,
    Where the greatest cause of death is birth." Jake Lucas, Winona, MN.
     
  12. Joined: Mar 2013
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    Rumars Senior Member

    Innovation depends more on the predominant cultural trends, but it needs a base of prosperity. The island societies were not hunter/gatherer but agrarian ones, with a highly developed structures and enough prosperity and free time (at least for the men). When the europeans arrived, the Tongan kingdom was well on the way of conquering half of the pacific islands. The cultural and economic exchange was widespread, nobody was truly isolated, and this had been going on from some time. I think only Easter Island was truely forgotten and Hawaii was seldom visited.
     
  13. BobBill
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    BobBill Senior Member

    Rumars, if you had used the word "practicality" instead of "prosperity," I could agree more. I understand your reference but society and sailing are not so wedded, IMO, but do not wish to hijack thread.
     
  14. BobBill
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    BobBill Senior Member

    There is the "Trade" and the means trading is carried out. efficiency and practicality, will be the factor and decided by ease of use, it seems...
     

  15. 3人6P3人6P,把性慾揉出来把性慾揉出来,很能摇很能摇
    BobBill
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    BobBill Senior Member

    Maybe the ? is, did "Rudolph" lead Santa or did Santa use a crabber? Ho-ho! Before my AM cafe!
     
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